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Talk:Reaper
Unsorted theory threads Does it seem like the first portion of this article, before the spoiler warning, is a bit over dramatic? It does not seem to fit with the rest of the wiki, in that it provides information that seems assumed, rather than backed up by knowledge from the game. I cite especially where the editor(s) speak about the funding and work hours spent to find out about the reapers, highlighted right after explaining that there were very few who were interested... my point being, is all this information accurate, and is it currently presented in the most clean and (video game based) factual way possible? Just curious for input. Also, it should at the very least be moved to the section after that spoiler tag. Everything's after the tag, now, and I've rewritten the most flagrant bits of melodrama. Also, it seems like the concept of indoctrination should have its own section, at least-possibly an article. Is it correct to refer to the Reapers as AI, if they were not created by anyone? AI has a creator. --84.69.214.28 22:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC) :The salarian councillor describes Sovereign as an AI. Sovereign claimed no one created the Reapers, but it also claimed to be invincible. If the Reapers are machines, they had to be built by somebody originally, and I'm guessing they either don't want to remember that, or don't want to admit it to organic races. -- Tullis 23:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC) : ::Point taken, it would be interesting if it was found out that the machines have no creator, I think this is a grey area deliberately created by the writers to avoid awkward questions, paradoxes and the sort. :: :: It's also logically impossible. Molecules really can't fall together and become self determining robots made from liquifed sentient beings by chance, it's different for organic life because that's fundamentally a set of complex chemical reactions but natural processes simply can't program. Given that Reapers have been around for least 37 million years ago (you visit a reaper disabled that long ago in the second game), and Liara thinks that someone (the Reapers) have been removing evidence of previous civilisation I think it's simply because only the Reapers actually know at this point who invented this and they're not telling anyone. Steviesteveo 22:18, January 31, 2010 (UTC) :Of course, that is predicated upon the assumption that the original Reapers were "self determining robots made from liquified sentient beings" when this is never stated. We know that now, apparently, the Reapers can "reproduce" by liquifying sentient beings to make new Reapers, but this in no way, shape, or form means that the original Reapers came about through the same process. In fact, at this time I see no reason to assume so based on the uniformity of the other Reapers seen. Every Reaper shown other than the Human-Reaper looks pretty much the same, like a giant cuttlefish. Knowing what we know about the liquification process of building a Reaper, this would have taken, what, a few trillion trillion sentients to accomplish? And you have to remember that we're told the Reaper takes the physical form of the beings it's made of, so all these sentients would have to be of the same or very similar races. It doesn't make sense to assume that the Reapers have always used this method to increase their numbers. SpartHawg948 22:24, January 31, 2010 (UTC) ::: :: It's also possible, due to the size disparity between the Human-Reaper and all other Reapers seen during the ending cutscene of ME2, that perhaps only an inner portion of the Reaper that is not visible to outsiders, and perhaps not even displayed to indoctrinated servants within the Reaper (such as Saren or Benezia) takes on the form of the species whose genetic material is used to form a new Reaper. With that consiideration in mind, it is entirely possibly that an extremely advanced civilization existing a huge amount of time before even the Protheans were faced with a catastrophy on a galactic scale and were forced to build a Reaper out of their own genetic material in hopes that the Reaper may eventually use that genetic material to "jump start" evolution and regrow their race anew, but somewhere along the way the Reaper made plans of its own and each Reaper is the result of the harvesting of genetic material from suitable races to form a Reaper Larva which is then contained within the standard, minimally variated Reaper hulls that are seen at the endgame cutscene. Remember, I beleive EDI states that the Reapers attempted to make a Prothean-Reaper, but failed, speculated that they likely failed to to the Protheans relatively successful attempts to thwart the Reapers. Elseagoat 17:39, February 23, 2010 (UTC) Speculation Moved from main article: It should also be noted that the Reapers may not just be a race of vessel machines as we are led to believe. In the vision that Commander Shepard experienced from the Prothean Beacon there were glimpses of what looked like half machine, half organic beings harvesting the Protheans. You also catch a glimpse of one these beings mouths screaming in the vision. This would also explain why Sovereign actually has an interior and the infrastructure to carry passengers. If they were merely a race of synthetic vessels they would have no need to have the ability to transport organics, unless it is to disperse their indoctrinated slaves across the galaxy. What is also seen in this vision is what looks to be synthetic matter "growing" onto an organic surface. This hints that the dragon's teeth are in fact Reaper technology that turns organic material to synthetic, and it could hint at one of two things or both: the harvesting processes might include turning the advanced species of the galaxy to artificial life and enslaving them, or that new Reapers are "grown" out of the harvested races. If the mecha-organic Reaper theory is used, it can be postulated that, given the "billion year old genetically-engineered starship" (the 'leviathan of Dis') found on Jartar, the Reapers have existed in their present state for at least a billion years. *if know one created the reapers maybe they are like a galatic god of some sort?-electrobolt ** They want you to believe they were not created and that they are invincible. However at the end of the game it is proved that they are not invincible, and so I have my doubts regarding the fact that they are "eternal" and that they have no creator. ;) We will see in the sequel. Darkdrium 03:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC) ***Agreed. They're machines. They have to have been built by someone-a machine can't simply evolve. Sovereign was probably just playing psychological warfare games-he seems to think very poorly of organics, and might think we'd buy that.Freemanhasaposse 03:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC) ****Okay, I've seen this mistake made several times. Just because humans are organic doesn't exempt them from the classification of 'machine' all organic species are machines, they're just made of carbon and water instead of steel and silicon. There's some speculation that life might be able to form based around silicon instead of carbon under certain circumstances and perhaps they'd call themselves something else because they aren't based around carbon, which is the definition of organic. If a species evolved that way, with a different base chemistry, they could say they had no creator, as they evolved the same way any other species did. Or, perhaps they were the normal sort of organic species who augmented themselves to an extent where they started to be more synthetic than natural and still have no creator since they evolved as any other species, but then elevated themselves to something more than purely organic. This could easily explain their attitude towards organics, believing they transcended organic life, and so are superior to them. Also, in not being synthetic in the usual sense, they could have a bias against synthetic life because they're just a product of organics, maybe seen as cowardice for the organics, not willing to elevate themselves or something of that nature. But really my point was that humans are machines, just less robust than others. Greatak 19:20, February 23, 2010 (UTC) Speaking of speculation, what about that bit at the end of the first section about reverse-engineering of mass relays possibly being the trigger for the Reaper's return? I don't think there is enough substantial proof for this to be included. The dialogue of the game suggests that Sovereign has been trying to activate the Citadel relay for some time by the time Shepard becomes involved, and the Citadel races appear to have no idea of how to reverse engineer a relay. Maybe that line should go until there is more conclusive evidence. SpartHawg948 17:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC) :Also, (just thought of this) how would the Reapers know about the reverse engineered relay? They had no knowledge of Ilos, as Vigil clearly states, because the Protheans wisely kept Ilos "of the grid" (ie no records or data on file, extremely compartmentalized, need-to-know, etc..) It's obvious that sometime later Sovereign (or Saren) learned about the relay, but it also seems obvious to me that the Reapers would have had no knowledge of the relay before they attacked. SpartHawg948 17:55, 13 September 2008 (UTC) ::I know this is an 18 month old thread, but I wanted to make a note. Sovereign and/or the Reapers probably were aware of the Conduit, for two reasons: ::#The location of the research and the origin relay (that is, Ilos) may have been classified, but that doesn't mean the project itself was completely secret. Records of the project, such as a name and possibly a basic purpose probably existed, in a manner similar to U.S. defense spending allocations; the name of the project and the (general) purpose (e.g. build a stealth fighter) are public knowledge, while the details are hidden. If we give the Reapers a small amount of luck (to have at least one appropriations bill survive their attack) and any credit for brains, they'd have known of the research. ::#More importantly, the Relay Monument on the Citadel is a dead giveaway. Modern species may think it's just a statue, because they don't understand the relays and the keepers remove the need to explore and reverse engineer the Citadel, but the Reapers would presumably recognize a relay terminal in the heart of their trap. ::Simply knowing of it doesn't mean they'd do anything about it though. As long as Ilos itself was unknown (reasonable, since it is stated that you can't know the destination of a Mass Relay without using it, so backtracking from the Relay Monument is out), they'd simply assume their purge would clear up any loose ends. After all, they're killing the whole species anyway, so what does one dinky relay research project matter? They may be a bit overconfident, but they've got justification: Taking the 37 million year old derelict as the lower bound on their age, with an average time between reaping of 50,000 years, they've pulled this off at least 740 times without a hitch. How were they to know the Protheans would not only build a relay prototype, but hide it successfully, and build it well enough to remain operational for another 50,000 years? A more logical explanation is that they knew of the Conduit (along with all the other data they copied off the Protheans' networks before destroying them) but it didn't become important until Sovereign tried to initiate a new purge and the keepers didn't work. Only then did they comb through the archives, look for anything that might help, and start a hundreds of years long process to acquire agents and look for ways to solve the problem. The Conduit was likely just one of many options explored; the decision to focus on it presumably dates to within months of the attack on Eden Prime. ShadowRanger 18:18, February 25, 2010 (UTC) I think it's obvious that the reapers where inspired by the saberhagen bezerkers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen) :Entirely possible, and there are a number of similarities, though there are a number of sources for a conflict between organic and synthetic intelligences. That said, your link points out a second likely borrowing: The anti-Berserker Berserker was named the qwib-qwib. I'm sure someone thought naming a ship in the Quarian Flotilla the Qwib-qwib would be a nice tip of the hat, plus an opportunity to make for some hilarious dialog in Tali's loyalty quest. ShadowRanger 18:24, February 25, 2010 (UTC) I personaly believe that the droid things in the pre E3 trailer were Reapers. Drsdino 04:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Who’s to say that machines can't evolve? There is much in common with robots and organic life. Wires are simply metal nerves, the creatures could have metal skin, and the creatures could use something similar to the geth’s synthetic rubber muscle. The turains already have a metal faceplate growing on their head and the synthetic muscle has already been developed in the real world. On a faraway bizarre world in another galaxy these sorts of creatures could evolve. All that makes us organic is our carbon base but what if a species is, say, titanium based? These creatures would look very robotic. After all, all we are is a cloud of atoms animated by chemical reactions, is that so much different than a robot? By the way, I think that the reapers are a human sized species too, and that sovereign was simply starship shaped because the races of the galaxy would take notice if they saw the reapers in their true form running around the stars. Well that’s my theory; say what you like about it. Sorry to interject in the middle of your theory, but I would like to point out that evolution requires some very key components in order to occur. First, there must be genetic variation, when a new member of the population is created, there must be some degree of randomness where the individual may develope unique traits. Second, there must be enough pressure from the environment to ensure that the population is strained, so that "survival of the fittest" applies (this is why the Krogan are very genetically stable and do not evolve, they are not pressured by many habitable environments other than the extremely hostile Tuchunka, their homeworld.) Third, it is assumed that the most fit individuals will reproduce, passing on their unique genes. Since machines are manufatured and have no genetic variation, they cannot evolve in the standard manner. The closest to evolution that a synthetic could come to would be self determinated. The machine could decide for itself how to be more efficient or effective and make the changes that it sees fit, but this would be a synthetic equivalent of evolution.Elseagoat 17:39, February 23, 2010 (UTC) :Sorry to interject on your interjection but genetic variation originally was replication being performed imperfectly. They were trying to make identical copies of themselves, but little hiccups occurred, over time eventually ending up with the sexual reproduction system that most organisms evolve with now. If there's just machines making more machines, they're not perfect. The purpose of quality control departments in manufacturing plants is to make sure that the deviations from the intended design aren't too severe as to limit the effectiveness of the part, but as long as it still works, that part is still used. So what if there were only geth, making more geth. There's plenty of individual parts that could be made in a less than perfect manner that, in effect, is extremely similar to point mutations in genetic code. With sufficient time, these mutations could develop into some sort of analogous mechanism to sexual reproduction to encourage more rapid evolution, or even something akin to in vivo modification, such as the genetic enhancements referenced throughout the ME universe. And as production facilities expand, using a single master copy of their programming becomes more an more unfeasible and as you start making copies of copies, things like compression artifacts could build up and drive evolution in their software as well as hardware. Evolution could work just fine in synthetic life, not to mention driven evolution of them identifying flaws in their design and improving it. Each platform would have different needs and so optimize itself differently. Greatak 19:32, February 23, 2010 (UTC) I've got a theory thats particularly interesting but requires some knowledge in quantum physics and some creativity to understand. I believe that the Reapers were originally energy beings that existed in the chaotic aftermath of the Big Bang. In the 300,000 years it took for the Universe to cool down, they learned all about they the Universe can and does work, as energy beings should last forever (so long as the circumstances remain constant). However, as the Universe cooled and matter and energy decoupled (in the early Universe, matter and energy were the same, and existed as one, allowing energy beings to exist, but when it cooled down, energy seperated fom matter), energy beings couldn't exist, so they pulled together warship bodies of "Reaper alloy", becoming the Reapers we know and hate (or love, depending on who you are). The reason they destroy organic life is either one of the following: 1. They're really ticked that we evolved when they couldn't, and add insult to injury by destroying us at our apex or (As I believe) 2.They aren't really "destroying" or "killing" as much as "cleansing". I am addressing the "synthetic material growing on organic material". This might actually be the Reapers "cleansing" the Protheans, turning them into geth-like beings, so that they can (as a Reaper would say)"progress to absolute perfection, as we have". This would explain the prupose and origins of the Dragon's Teeth: To "purify" organics. Thats my theroy, point out any flaws I may have. :Ok, a few thoughts: *1) If they are energy beings, why would it matter if energy and matter began seperating b/c the universe cooled? They're energy beings, after all, not energy and matter beings (if I am understanding you correctly). *2) If they were unable to exist in their prior state b/c of this cooling, how would cobbling together starship hull bodies help them in the least bit? Wouldn't they still be energy beings inside starship hulls? Energy beings still susceptible to the cooling that was threatening them from the get-go? *3) They state that they aim to bring about the extinction of their targets. Pretty straightforward, that part. Extinction. *4) From what we've seen, based on the statements of Sovereign, the Reapers feel nothing but contempt for organic beings, and for that matter, they feel pretty much the same way about the geth (viewing them as nothing but tools to be discarded when their usefulness is at an end). You generally don't elevate those you hold in contempt to anywhere near your level by helping them "progress to absolute perfection". *Those are my basic thoughts regarding potential flaws. Also as an aside, I don't see anything in there that requires any real knowledge in quantum mechanics (as quantum physics is more properly known). I have no real knowledge of it other than that obtained in passing, mostly from SciFi, and I think I followed the theory pretty well. Also, please remember to sign your edit, which can be done by using four tildes (this guy ~) SpartHawg948 12:32, October 27, 2009 (UTC) This is where the quantum mechanics comes in: In order for a normal being to exist, it must exist as matter, taking up space. The reason for this being that if a being is not matter, they are just random energy flucuations, incapable of thought. If matter and energy are one, as in a young universe, then energy beings can exist. As the universe cooled, The Reapers put together bodies of thier choice, like creating a custom baby. This protects them in the way that they become matter, with super-complex "brains" put together for thought. A cooling universe means matter becomes predominant, meaning the reapers can only survive as matter, or synthetics, in this case. As to the contempt, I didn't say that they were doing that, only that it addressed the dragon's teeth and the images of the Protheans being "cleansed". They could just be angry because the organics thrive were they cannot. Another thought: What if the crtical level of advancement the Vanguard (Sovereign, in this case) was waiting for a level of technology that could mean the Reapers could, once again, be freed of thier physical bodies, and once again become energy. And they "purify" organics that could help them achieve this goal? And they wish the organics to progress down thier path (Citadel and mass relays) so that they are easy targets? If this is all true, the Reapers likely wait steadily longer and longer, waiting for a higher amount of advancement every time the cycle has failed. It is likely a fusion of both jealosy/fury towards the thriving organics, and a desire to be free. In the end, however, thier purpose (until we know for sure) is truly unknowable, and likely incomprehensible for the average organic. Any other points I left out? --Nra 'Vadumee 21:10, November 3, 2009 (UTC) ::Please keep speculation from getting out of hand on talk pages. See the Style Guide: Talk Pages section; talk pages are ideally meant to discuss the article itself, not post exceptionally long theories. They take up too much space and make it difficult to keep track of discussions about the page. Again: we are not a forum. --Tullis 21:45, November 3, 2009 (UTC) Based on my personal knowledge of writing stories, I can strongly say that the "Reapers" are somehow the future incarnations of the "Geth". I point towards the sentient Geth named "Legion", and the phrase the "Reaper" Vanguard (The one Reaper we were fighting in the first game) used to refer to itself, possibly meaning that it originated from "Legion". And to me it seems that the "Reaper's" cycle of death is a way to harvest parts to create more of them. In essense, they are amassing corpses and using the natural minerals and such within the bodies to create a Reaper ship. The new types of Husks can be evidence to this. How the "Reapers" being futuristic "Geth" I believe is by some sort of conclusion in the final game where they are somehow sent back in time. Though this is all speculation. :Based on my personal experience with... well, I don't think personal experience really factors into this at all, I'd have to say I'm skeptical of that claim. I mean, the Reapers feel nothing but contempt for the geth, as is stated more than once. The phrase "We are Legion" is of course a Biblical reference, and one that fit the Reapers to a T. The connection between this statement and the geth named Legion (please remember that, with only a couple of exceptions, race names are not capitalized) has yet to be fleshed out, but I sincerely hope it has nothing to do with a lame Star Trek style time travel cop-out. Also, if they are simply obtaining minerals to build more Reapers, why go after organics? As the codex entry on Husks states, the amount of resources recoverable from a body are minuscule, and you have to factor in the fact that each time, the yield is going to vary greatly, what with the differing numbers of and physiology of sentient life they harvest on various go-arounds. If it's about materiel, why not just strip-mine the hell out of the planets with materials they need and be done with it? Sorry, but I for one have to file that theory securely under the heading of "Highly Improbable". SpartHawg948 21:11, November 24, 2009 (UTC) Fair Enough. Now that you mention it, that would suck if it did turn out to be the Star Trek time travel angle. ALTHOUGH...Now after finishing my 5th playthrough of ME after I stupidly deleted my maxed out save file, I redid a quest where a bunch of Scientist find a bunch of ancient Dragon teeth or whatever the hell they're called. Those spike things that make husks. Might be something to think about... 22:38, December 1, 2009 (UTC) :Not gonna lie... don't see what that has to do with anything... it certainly doesn't seem to relate at all to your last post! :P I mean, it's never stated that the geth created dragon's teeth, just that they use them. They worship the Reapers, so in all likelihood they uncovered some caches of Reaper dragon's teeth and are using them themselves. SpartHawg948 23:09, December 1, 2009 (UTC) :O I always assumed the Geth invented the Dragon Teeth stuff. So much for my theory. 08:48, December 2, 2009 (UTC) :Remember Vigil? How he said that the Reapers indocrinated some of the protheans and used them to harvest the planets? Also, Saren was implanted by Sovereign, and Sovereign was able to use thes implants to control Saren. Perhaps the Reapers implanted a few of the Protheans so they could take control of their bodies and oversee the harvesting. Also, it is possible that the Reapers have the space inside for carrying indocrinated organics, and for storing the harvested technologies. Effectofthemassvariety 19:49, December 13, 2009 (UTC) I got this bit of pure speculation from a series of cool books I've ben reading. I don't know if any of you have heard of the Fermi Paradox but a solution these books suggest is that a species would come along that sees its only way of survival as eradicating any other civilization that emerges before it becomes a threat. Maybe this is what the reapers have done and just streamlined the process with the mass relay network. The one found in the book was a giant ship and was believed to have been originally an organic mind downloaded to electronic equipment. Who knows, but I thought it was a cool idea. Theory: We know that a) reapers are derived from the 'essence' of organic species and b) their primary goal seems to be the 'harvesting' of organic species, both for their genetic material (the collectors seemed especially interested in collecting species with unique or diverse genetics) and for their technology. We also know they may take on the appearance of the organic species they were primarily derived from, and that the majority of the Reaper fleet in dark space has the same cuttlefish-like appearance, which suggests they were all derived from one species of organics (though it's also possible all Reapers eventually take that shape, and the 'larva' resembling the source species is buried deep within that superstructure as a sort of kernel). It seems plausible that the Reapers were once a species of biologicals who reached a technological 'singularity', developing computers and artificial intelligences that eventually outperformed organics in every way. To avoid complete irrelevance (or even extinction), as the machines would soon no longer have any use for organics, they merged their biological essence with their technology to create beings that, they hoped, would represent the next stage in their evolution, allowing them to live forever as something like gods. Now, they have turned the galaxy into an enormous computer, iteratively producing new genetic material and technologies. The Reapers incorporate this into themselves, growing stronger as they do, and to prevent any other civilization from challenging their complete dominance they do not allow technological progress in the galaxy to proceed beyond a certain point. They no longer have any understanding of the suffering they inflict on biologicals (Harbinger's lines like 'this hurts you' and 'your form is fragile' suggest a fascination with pain- something they can no longer feel or even empathize with) and might even see the incorporation of a species' genes into one of their own as a high honor, as they are essentially turning their biological victims into gods. 22:18, February 7, 2010 (UTC) I just finished watching pirates of the carribean 3 and I just tought of something. could the reapers be giant, snytetic, highly advanced, spacefairing Kracken?Sothourn5678 03:00, February 19, 2010 (UTC) I've just thought of a few theorys over the time I have read these comments. Though I would like to address my most Questionable:. This might be possible by evidence of evolution. I mean, we've seen what happened to the Protheans after the so called "Extinction" of them through the reapers. They turned into collectors; Agents for the reapers. What if the same cycle appeared to them through some other Genocidal race. What if the Reapers were once Organic beings. We've already proved Reapers of being both Organic and Synthetic. Other evidence would be seen as how they where created. Everything/Everyone must have a creator and begining, just as everthing must have an end. Reapers are not Invincible, we all should know, we bested them all. What if the reapers were made like husks in hightened number; just as a Scion is made out of 3 organic beings. What if they are all just Evolved Husks made out of much earlier (Possibly Billions of years) civilization. Just a theory, but would still pose to be a brain-bender. FalconKilla111 05:14, February 23, 2010 (UTC) The cycle So the Protheans disappeared 50,000 years ago, right? Pretty much all organic life was wiped out in the galaxy at that time? Would that not include early humans? How are we still around? I mean, we were just losing our hair at 200,000 years ago. We were already using tools around 75,000 years ago. Our first art appeared 50,000 years ago. Does nobody else find that little discrepancy odd? If the Reapers are so dangerous and methodical, how did they miss us? The only conclusion that I can draw is that we were not worth their time. But what about the other races? The asari discovered the Citadel when we were still evolving. That can only mean that they were at an even more advanced state of evolution 50,000 years ago. I mean, call me ignorant to the lore, but I think I see a hole in the story here. 04:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC) :Not all organic life was wiped out 50,000 years ago. The Reapers specifically targeted the Protheans, who were the only spacefaring species at that time. It might be that they're only interested in cultures with advanced technology; if they keep repeating the cycle, it makes sense that they'd spare primitive races without anything worth harvesting yet, and come back for them later. --Tullis 13:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Its been stated by the Reapers and Protheans that all "advanced" life was targeted for whatever reason. The way they did it was that the Reapers hunted down any advanced civilizations that had contact with their technology I.E. mass relays and the citadel which made it easy to find their victims. Back 50000 years ago we were spared because the reapers would have no reason to come to us and cleanse(we were still evolving). So in the previous 50000 years the Protheans were the only advanced race. There might have been others but the Protheans were most prominent. All the races today were not a space faring civilization at the time of the prothean extiction and thus were spared. In a galaxy this big there are sure to be species that would have been spared if Soveriegn had his way because they were not in the technological criteria to be exterminated.--Majordomo50y 21:31, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :That's pretty much exactly what I said above. : ) --Tullis 21:33, November 9, 2009 (UTC) Dead Reaper I didn't see any dead reaper in the enemies dev diary... Did I miss something or did someone just get something wrong here? -- 15:23, November 22, 2009 (UTC) :I believe what is being referred to can be seen 0:45 into the clip. SpartHawg948 18:10, November 22, 2009 (UTC) Does anyone else think that that might have been Ploba? Gigantic machinery, red background... --LBCCCP 19:22, November 27, 2009 (UTC) there are no dead reapers just direlect ones New theory on Reaper cycle of extinction It is possible that the Reapers have reached the pinnicle of their evolution and are incapable of imagination or new ideas. To this end, as all technology is based off of the mass relays and they are Reaper technology, new galactic civilisations may come up with a never before imagined technology based on this. The Reapers may incorporate this into their design during the extinction cycle, thus evolving further. -- :I think this idea is actually really good! I wouldn't have thought of it, but it seems to make sense. Why else would the Reapers harvest the technology of races like the Protheans? Don't the Reapers have a big chip on their... um... hulls? If organic life is so inferior, then why do they even need them. I'm speaking rhetorically, of course. There are plenty of possible explainations for the way the Reapers act, and why they do what they do. I'm just saying that this theory is very compelling, and very interesting. Effectofthemassvariety 19:38, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Well the problem with this theory is, the Reapers put up the relays to SPECIFICALLY guarantee that any sentient race goes down a certain technological path, instead of another one that might be a weakness to them. This doesnt make any sense if the Reapers have reached the pinnacle of their technology. Wouldnt you want fresh new ideas to incorporate unto your own instead of pushing for the same thing over and over again? 14:17, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :Well there is the one planet race where they supposedly have a weapon against Reapers but are all dead and there is some eccentric volus who had visions trying to find it. It's all hinted at, just don't remember which planet.--Xaero Dumort 18:43, December 14, 2009 (UTC) ::Klencory. ::And I can't believe I knew that without looking. --Tullis 18:49, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :::lol and I just finally found it while looking. Wonder which of us is more embarrassed.--Xaero Dumort 18:59, December 14, 2009 (UTC) ::::No, no, I think it's still me. --Tullis 19:22, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :::::If it makes you feel any better, I also thought "Klencory" as soon as I heard 'planet' and 'eccentric volus'. However, I also remembered that there is no mention of any sort of weapon against Reapers there, just "Lost crypts of beings of light". Honestly, when I read that, an offensive weapon was one of the last thoughts that entered my mind. The first, actually, based on the fact that the crypts were created to protect organics from the synthetics was that maybe it was something along the lines of a shield world like in the Halo series. So yeah, no mention of anti-Reaper "weapons", just crypts that can supposedly protect organics from "machine devils". SpartHawg948 21:20, December 14, 2009 (UTC) ::::See, I hear beings of light that were created to protect from machine devils and I think weapon. Defensive weapon, but still.--Xaero Dumort 09:01, December 15, 2009 (UTC) :::::Fair enough... seems like we're gravitating to different part of the entry. You're looking mostly at the part about beings of light "created at the dawn of time to protect organic life from synthetic 'machine devils.'" which I admit, could be construed as a weapon of some sort, while I'm looking more at the part about the crypts of the aforementioned beings of light, and crypts makes me think structures, hence defensive structures. That, and the fact that the crypts are the crypts of the beings of light is what led me more to the defensive rather than offensive theory. SpartHawg948 09:07, December 15, 2009 (UTC) Here's a funny theory.Maybe the Reaper's way of reproduction is based on the cicle.(i don't want to spoil the game so this is the only hint i'm giving)If you don't believe me you may as well wait until the release of the game. 20:56, January 24, 2010 (UTC) Call of Cthulu/Lovecraft Is it just me that thinks that the Reaper connection with H.P Lovecraft's Cthulu deserves more attention than a single bullet point? It just seems that the design of Sovereign itself is very much based off of Cthulu what with the tentalcle/cuttlefish face, the terrifying horror that humans can't comprehend, the consumption of lesser species, the indoctrination of humans. Just seems to warrant a little more talking about. :If there's a documented source for these comparisons, then sure, it warrants more attention than a single bullet point. If there isn't a source and it's speculation, than one bullet point is completely consistent with site policy. SpartHawg948 00:31, January 17, 2010 (UTC) :: I would hesitate to label everything scary with tentacles as expressly Lovecraftian without a word of god reference to it. I think it's fairly strongly connected, the incomprehension in particular for me (Lovecraft wrote the old ones as morally neutral beings operating on a level that couldn't be expressed by human morality, only later writers made them evil - any discussion, even post ME2, about why they do the genocide at all falls into wild mass guessing or simply "I have no idea why you'd do that") Steviesteveo 07:36, February 4, 2010 (UTC) :: What I thought of from the "dead gods may dream" line was actually the end of Neverwinter Nights 2 Mask of the Betrayer expansion. Given that it was also made by Bioware, isn't it just as likely a reference? I'm thinking the Cthulu reference may go deeper than we realize. We now know about the Protheans being the Collectors, and therefore the Protheans' connection to the Reapers. I can't even speculate as to what this next part means, but: I just find it odd that the Protheans also have a physical resemblance to Cthulu. (Going off of statues found on Ilos in saying that.) I don't know what it means, but between the Reapers' tentacles, the Protheans' tentacles, and the "dead gods" line, something makes me scratch my head at this. On top of that, why would the attempts to create a Prothean-Reaper have failed, and does that have a connection to the above stuff? There's definitely something missing here. I don't think we're done learning about the Protheans. JakeARoonie 07:32, February 18, 2010 (UTC) Appearance I put a couple of sentences about the newly-raised questions of where exactly the reapers derive their appearances from. No speculation, just questions that hopefully will provoke some thought in the reader. 21:46, February 7, 2010 (UTC) " Theoretically, should the current extinction event have come to pass, the next cycle would have seen Reapers resembling humans, salarians, turians, asari, or any number of species the Reapers felt worthy. The current Reaper fleet resembles Protheans, as they were the last species to be harvested by the Reapers." : I have a bit of a problem with this. I agree that they do take their appearance after the organics from which they form themselves, but from what we know about how the Protheans looked, the current reapers don't look anything like them. The Protheans from what we can see were bipedal, typical alien looking creatures. SPOILER That would look quite similar to the Collectors for obvious reasons. END SPOILER. Sovereign, and the other Reapers we've seen (save one exception) look like squid like creatures. Also, the events at the end of ME 2, don't prove that this is their reproductive cycle, or that they even require one. It could have been developed as a tactical advantage for the future, as Shepard was the first (in our knowledge) to prevent plan A from occurring. Nevertheless, until it is proven why they do this, it remains purely speculation and shouldn't be presented as fact on the wiki. Berychance 05:37, January 31, 2010 (UTC) : I agree. We're shown an image of a Prothean, you can view another Prothean vision on one of the side quests in the second game, and it doesn't look like Sovereign or Harbringer. They both appear to be the squid-like tentacled type ships. Near the end of the second game you're also shown a cut scene of a fleet of Reaper ships which are all the squid like shape. Steviesteveo 22:26, January 31, 2010 (UTC) ::: All of them looked different, they shared some similarities but there was distinctive differences, it is likely they take their appearence from the species they are built from but the only evidence for that is 1/10 of a finished reaper, the components that resemble the species they are formed from might not even be external, not enough information to be sure but there is definatly variation amongst the reapers. I do hope we see one or two in the future that have more bipedal traits. ralok 22:35, January 31, 2010 (UTC) :: I need to see that scene again, I only watched it as part of winning the game. I would really expect to see a huge difference between different species if they're all from different ones. I'd expect to see almost nothing in common between, eg a rachni and an asari based reaper. :: A bipedal reaper would be truly amazing to see. Sovereign is shown as being capable of landing on planetary surfaces. A bipedal reaper might presumably be able to physically walk around. Steviesteveo 22:31, February 1, 2010 (UTC) Mind if I add a little to this discussion about Prothean - Reaper appearance issue. This is speculation. The Reaper may be taking the most advantageous genetic traits from a single species and thus gaining a new unique form based upon many different species. The Protheans had very long tentacle fingers and beards, so far all Reapers which we have seen had this appearance. Since the Protheans were the only species to be harvested at the last cycle, the Reapers may have found bipedal form to be a disadvantage in space. Also note that the Human-Reaper hybrid had two eye sockets but four eyes. That way the Reapers constantly evolve by taking only the best genetic material from their former harvests and the current harvest. Also note that the lower parts of the Human-Reaper hybrid were not completed, maybe the Reapers intended on integrating an upper humanoid torso with a Reaper "squid ship". Creating a bipedal humanoid Reaper seems rather humorous. SarcasmI can already imagine a humanoid reaper trying to swim through space/Sarcasm Asmoderius 00:42, February 2, 2010 (UTC) Anthropomorphism being the exception rather than the norm in previous cycles may account for the reaper fleet's apperance. Perhaps the cuttlefish-esque common thread we see has been the standard up to this point. 22:58, February 3, 2010 (UTC) During the final mission, EDI notes that the Reapers were unable to use the Protheans to make a Reaper, and therefore repurposed them into a sort of labor force to help collect additional races to create a new reaper. As for WHY a new reaper is necessary prior to the return of the entire reaper fleet? Well, I'd assume it has something to do with the destruction of Sovereign - they clearly need some sort of vanguard to prompt their return, and his destruction represents a setback. They're then forced to alter their plan, and work through intermediaries - the Collectors - to build a new vanguard. As for why the Collectors were retained prior to Sovereign's destruction, the game notes that they were only taking limited numbers of individual races - likely as tests to determine which races would be targeted for abduction/processing vs. labor force repurposing following the reaper return. - Josh - February 2nd, 2010 : The thought occurs that the new Reaper may actually be Sovereign's direct replacement. Resources seem to be scarce for the reapers (nothing for 50,000 years and then a sudden feast, then nothing for 50,000 years again) so they may have decided to keep their population constant. Given the advantage of surprise and the power of each individual Reaper they may not have needed to replace a Reaper in millions of years. You only actually see two reapers disabled or destroyed, one at the end of Mass Effect 1 and the other apparently 37 million years before the games. It doesn't seem to happen often, they may all look the similar because they're mostly from the same generation and are just hanging on through advantageous tactics and physical toughness Steviesteveo 07:28, February 4, 2010 (UTC) ::This bugged me, too. Regarding appearance, the Reapers that we all see sorta look like Prothean heads - tentacle beards, and such. Remember the statues on Ilos. So it made sense that Sovereign looked like that - sounds to me like Reapers come in, harvest organics, use them to make new Reapers, and leave one behind to signal them. So a Prothean-derived Reaper stayed behind - Sovereign. I had assumed that a Human one would also be left behind for the next cycle. There are of course two problems - after the Human-Reaper went down, we see a ton of Reapers... and they're all squid-based ones. The other thing that bugs me is the scale of the Human-Reaper - it's tiny compared to any starship, let alone how big Sovereign was. So this is how I'm justifying it for now - the squid-ship is the standard for spacegoing Reapers, huge things. But they need to have more direct involvement on the ground, so they make smaller Reapers that look like the dominant species to be ground-based war machines. Also invokes terror. Imagine - Cthulhu in the sky, and a 100 meter high metal human striding towards you. Yeah, that sounds good. Hopefully however it's revealed in ME3 doesn't screw that sort of thing up. Bioware is usually quite careful with these things - they wouldn't say that Reapers all look different depending on when they were made then go and show nearly-identical Reapers a couple minutes later. /denial Boter 18:31, February 4, 2010 (UTC) : :: :::Maybe all reapers share the same general architecture. We don't actually know if the larva design is the reaper final design. It's also possible that every known Reapers are based on the same Prothean-looking species. We are told that the reapers were unable to use the protheans, maybe it's the first time they are able to product a new Reaper, maybe they failed every time except with us. Therefore it could explain that every reaper share the same appearance as they are created using the same species. Dunstark 12:02, February 8, 2010 (UTC+1) :::: What if the reapers looks like their "mother" species but then build a type of exoskeleton that is not identical but similar whit all other reapers? You must take account that EDI told that the Human Reaper was in it's larva stage, million mores (humans) were required to end it. KaTiON PT 20:44, February 10, 2010 (UTC) :: For the exoskeleton theory to really convince me I'd have wanted to see something along those lines in the derelict reaper ship mission. The way it looked to me is that it's a single structure. :: I really like the idea of ground based war machines, though. (I just really want a huge bipedal reaper boss, basically, I'm a gamer) Steviesteveo 20:44, February 14, 2010 (UTC) I have a theory as to the reapers appearance. Perhaps the reapers were originally an organic race, maybe even the first, and filled the entire galaxy, in a similar way to the protheans, and because they were uninhibited by the threat of genocide, advanced to the point where they invented the reaper creation process. Because it takes so many beings to create a single reaper, it explains why all the reapers seen in-game (sans the human-reaper) look alike, and why they are so few in number. This transformation would most likely be due to a lack of resources induced by a population unrestrained by outside forces. The cycle of extinction would be their solution to having to share the resources they need to survive, and hibernation in dark space allows them to wait for resources to replenish, similar to hibernation in bears.Tantalus91 02:52, February 11, 2010 (UTC) The exoskeleton is the exact same conclusion I came to. I formed a mental image of cracking open sovreign and finding a 100 foot tall prothean husk thing pulling the strings 00:51, February 18, 2010 (UTC) I agree with Tantalus91's statment becasue think about it, if our information is so far true about the Reapers building the Mass Relays and the Citadel, how could they have done it? If you look at the Reapers it looks as though it would be almost impossible for them to make any of these things, due to there lack of appendeges for buiding such objects. Which leads me to believe that at one time the Reapers were in fact first organic life forms that ruled over the entire galaxy. And it would be during this time that they built the Mass Relays and other objects. If this theory is in fact true, it would seem that the reason the Reapers seem to destroy other races after a time they see fit, is so they do not advance enough to learn how to turn themselves into organic beings, which would utimately threaten there race.--UNCxTrinity 04:29, February 23, 2010 (UTC) Speculation Let's please try and avoid speculation, shall we? For example, stating Reapers are at least a billion years old (if the Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper), when there is, of course, no proof that this is true. Using verifiable fact to ascertain a minimum age is fine, using assumption and speculation to ascertain it is not. And drawing a figure of 20,000 to 30,000 Reapers based on a brief snippet of video is also speculation, as is stating that the Reapers do not target other galaxies. (Note- I don't recall anything ever being said about the Reapers only targeting the Milky Way. If there is such evidence, please let me know!) So yeah, let's please lay off the speculation, please! SpartHawg948 04:31, February 13, 2010 (UTC) True, but its never stated that the Reapers only make one of their kind per 50,000 years, and the Leviathan of Dis is a "synthetic warship", hence why I placed that. Making one Reaper seems a little counter-productive. MasterChief117 18:27, February 14, 2010 (UTC) :No, it's not a synthetic warship, it's a genetically engineered warship. Big difference. If bio-engineered and synthetic are to be taken as synonymous now, that means Grunt is a synthetic krogan. And making only one Reaper per every 50,000 years or whatever may seem counter-productive to you, but remember that the Reapers are the ultimate in long-view mentality. SpartHawg948 23:30, February 14, 2010 (UTC) Reaper's Multiple AIs In ME2 Legion states that Sovereign (Nazara) has multiple AI Programs, seeing as Reapers are made from millions, quite possibly billions, of a species, would the theory of these 'programs' actually being the minds (left anomolies in the genetic paste, therefore "defect") of the victims as a side effect. Intentionally or not, these "defects" could've caused the Machines to be sentient with the altered minds of the masses that were used to make it. It would seem plausible, I don't believe the Collectors or Harbinger uploaded a mass of AI's into the Human Reaper at the end of ME2. Zetomb 09:46, February 16, 2010 (UTC) Mass Effect 2 spoilers I think there are many spoilers about ME2 in the section before the ME2 spoiler warning. For example Human-Reaper, reproduction theories, Harbinger and the awakening of Reaper Fleet. I understand it is hard to separate these facts based on the game or book they were introduced. Therefore the first spoiler warning should make it clear the article contains spoilers for ME, ME2 and ME: Revelation. L3zl13 09:53, February 21, 2010 (UTC) :Everything you just mentioned is after the ME2 spoiler tag, not before it. SpartHawg948 10:26, February 21, 2010 (UTC) :: The sections Cycle of Extinction and Characteristics are before the ME2 spoiler tag for example. And these contain information about the Human-Reaper, Harbinger and the Reaper fleet's awakening at the end of ME2. L3zl13 17:57, February 21, 2010 (UTC) :::Just to close this off, I moved the spoiler tag up, and removed the spoilers from the lede entirely. ShadowRanger 18:28, February 25, 2010 (UTC)